Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Why do we have this pricing? What is our narrative around our pricing? And I think we got back to that. So without doing all, you know, all the features and functions, all the plans, all the variants, all the ifs and buts, all the limitations, but rather like, why do we prize the way we do?
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Yo, Mike check. What's up everybody? You're listening to the Street Pricing Podcast, the only show where proven SaaS leaders share their mindset and mistakes in pricing. So we can all stop guessing, guessing and start growing. Enjoy, subscribe and tell a friend. Now let's break it down with your host and sought after slayer of bad pricing, Marcos Rivera.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: What's up and welcome to the Street Pricing Podcast. I'm Marcos Rivera, author, founder and CEO of Pricing IO and today's guest is going to be good because this person is driving a lot of usage based pricing in the field and trying to move us away from complexity and more towards clarity. Today I have Nicholas Lilia, who is the CEO and founder of Unium. Nicholas, welcome to the show.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Thank you Marcus, Great to be here.
[00:01:08] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks for jumping on here and talking to us. I know you have a lot of thoughts in your head. You see so many pricing and packaging models out there and a lot of companies even trying to shift to usage base. So first and foremost let's talk a little bit about you and what you do.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: At Unium, we do what's called subscription management and billing. I think in reality it's really we provide a platform for B2B SaaS and software companies where they can manage their revenue streams. So what does mean? Well all the way from, if they do like quoting for a sales led growth motion, or it could be like online sales if you do like more of a product led growth motion, but then all the way to management of contracts, data mediation, billing of recurring usage, revenue recognition and then producing insights as well. So it's very much in that area of like how do you execute on your pricing and how do you actually put this into practice?
[00:02:03] Speaker C: And this isn't your first rodeo. You've actually been involved in another successful SaaS company. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks. So I was with a company called Medias. Sometimes I say that it was very much like supplier invoice automation. So I went from the, from one side of the receivables, the accounts payable into accounts receivables. But that was a great, great journey. Started off early with like being employee, maybe 7, 8, 9, 10 something and towards then before I got going with uni, we were at 200 plus people from Australia to the US so.
And I think they are still really doing great. So, yeah, it's an awesome team.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: I love it. I love it. From AP to ar, there's so much opportunity for technology to step in and help fix that. And even as we get more complex, as software gets more complex, therein lies the opportunity as well. Like, how do we take that complexity, bring clarity, as I was saying in the beginning. So would love to have you get street with me, man. Are you ready?
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Sure. Let's get going.
[00:03:03] Speaker C: Okay, so here's what we're going to do, right? For all the listeners here, this show is based on the bookstreet pricing. So a little bit of a roadmap for you. So we start off with Rewind, which is a pricing story, a struggle, a success, something that really teaches all of us about what really happens when you're trying to change or update or move pricing along. And then we go from rewind to play. And that's really about what's happening today, present day, what's working. And then we'll unpack that a little bit and then we'll do fast forward, which is, okay, where's pricing going? What do we have to look forward to in the future? All right, so that's kind of how we structure. Then I throw in my favorite question at the end, which, Nicholas, I think we'll all have fun with. But with that, let's start off with that pricing story. Nicholas, take it away.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: Yes. I thought we would go back to the initial struggles that I guess all entrepreneurs have when they get going. And for me, I had spent quite a lot of time in like, pricing packaging. So I had a lot of expectations on myself and, you know, to really do great things from the start and not like, not get caught with the problems that I've seen before. So really, you know, taking on those learnings, but still, you know, like early days, you don't really know exactly where you fit in, how you're going to do it, how you're going to price it. You definitely need to iterate. And I was, you know, trying my best to sort of, I guess it's like a mix of you trying to pick up on, you know, a few trends, maybe a bit of copying others in the field as well, and then being, you know, smart as well as I try to be. And also like having a platform, it's not only one use case, it's quite many different use cases. So you can imagine when I got going with this, the spreadsheet it was growing in all dimensions and it was just becoming super, super complicated. And I had a number of steps at this, like just feeling like, okay, if we just can get this into place and then, you know, everything working, we can present it and they will think, you know, oh, this looks really thought through, this is great, we understand. But I never really got there, right.
I just felt like I was ending up in negotiations. And you know, the either like very detailed question, what does this mean? Or you know, what happens if this happens? And really getting deeper and deeper or just like playing negotiations, you know, it's like it's too expensive.
It's the only way that goes. And I did a number of different shifts and we're trying a bit more of a land and expand. We were trying like, no, maybe that is not working, maybe do like bit of everything. And we had a number of different variants of this. But I think like what really changed it was going back a step and think about like, why do we have this pricing? What is our narrative around our pricing? And I think we got back to that. So without doing all, you know, all the features and functions, all the plans, all the variants, all the ifs and buts, all the limitations, or rather like why do we price the way we do and be very, very clear on that. And so for us it was like, okay, so the best proxy for us to the value we provide is where the prospective customer is at AR or ARR plus usage. Because typically if you would grow them their business 100%, they would have at least twice the work. It could even be more than twice the work because it tends to grow exponentially.
So we try to find a proxy towards that. We try to be super, super clear that we don't want to be, we don't want to be a percentage of your revenue. We don't want to charge for anything that others are already solving. So for instance, we took away one time fees. So no one time fees, one time fees in any accounting platform or anywhere. So let's take that out of the question. We also felt like a lot of companies were doing, you know, revenue under management, basically taking the full amount of each and every invoice or billed amount and just putting that together and felt like, okay, so we basically would then be charging for tax and VAT and other things that are really not related to any of the value we provide to the customers. Right. So we took that away as well. So we tried to do a few things, but really having this discussion and then the number of legal entities as well. Because if you're having. Having 50 legal entities across the world, that's another thing than one entity. So when we started having those discussions or presenting like, okay, so going into a dialogue and being a bit prepared, sort of, this is roughly the price point without any details, but also telling, okay, and this is how we reason. All of a sudden we got other discussions going and we got to learn more things and understand, oh, I don't see it like that. Or, you know, oh, I see it as a tax on my revenue or you. I don't think. And what happened. And that really led us to do it a bit better. But really understand what is the price position that resonates with our buyers? And also, do they see that we correlate with them being successful? So if they grow their ARR, are we part of that?
[00:08:26] Speaker C: I don't disagree. I actually think that there's a lot of value in asking those questions and in figuring out the why you're pricing versus the why would lead you to the what. Right. So you, you have to get super clear in there. A lot of founders kind of skip over that part. Don't you find, Nicholas, that they just kind of get to the number?
[00:08:42] Speaker A: I do. And I think, like, in so many ways, you need to sort of overachieve in the beginning. Right.
Maybe the product isn't perfect, maybe the team isn't fully sized. So I think we're all in that mode of, like, having to present something rather than engaging dialogue sometimes. So maybe that's one of the reasons why we sometimes skip that. But I do think if you have the why and you sort of find where it resonates, you can sort of also pick up on some other cues. Like maybe there is something that you can add on to your price model, but really start from a very, very simple pricing model. Basically, what's the right price? Yeah, you're peeling it back, evolve from that. But it's difficult as well. I think we have to be humble enough to say that as well. I mean, it's. It's difficult, but I think talking about pricing can be really a vehicle for learning and finding your fit. And see, like, okay, maybe you also see, like this company. So sometimes we were meeting with companies, they were reselling things, right. So all of a sudden they had a margin of, let's say, 5% in the end. Then it's really tough compared to if you have a margin as with software and SaaS, or maybe like 80, 90%. Right. When we then price on AR. So that was wondering okay, maybe either we have to find a separate price plan for that segment or maybe we shouldn't try to serve them. There's always these things that you can pick up and learn from, but if you don't talk about the why and you don't have the narrative, you're not really inviting anyone to give you feedback, Right?
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's the golden piece that you need, right?
[00:10:26] Speaker A: It is. And I think pricing also really keeps it real. Right. Unless you have the pricing component we can all talk about. Yeah, I would like that. And you know, this would be nice. And you know, but if you put a price on it, it becomes real. It's like, well, you know, maybe I don't really need this, but this on the other hand, this is super, super important. And if I only had this particular piece of, you know, something, then I would definitely pay this price. You will get much more reality, I think if you couple this to pricing.
[00:10:57] Speaker C: You know, you triggered a thought in my head that just when you said that, because when you were peeling back, like, we're not going to charge for vad, we're not going to charge for this. Right. You were really honing in on that fairness, the exchange. Right. Understanding. But in that process, you probably decided maybe we should serve these types of customers versus these other types, as you were learning. But then as you hone down and started to narrow your focus, then you start asking different questions. And so it's this cycle that goes back and forth. Is that what really happened when you did that? When you started digging into the why and going deeper, did you find a sharper who?
[00:11:33] Speaker A: I think so. I mean, looking back, we've always been talking a lot about like, ideal customer profile. And I have to, like, I do think this was a very crucial part of that because as I said, you really get good answers. And I do think on one hand you could say in the beginning you're only in it for the learnings. You don't need to charge anything. Maybe the first few customers, that could be one take on it. But I do think having companies that pay for your service keeps it real. You have to deliver. It's worth something, it's for real.
And I think we definitely took away a lot of sub segments that we thought we wouldn't win in the beginning. So definitely, I think the whole ICP and definition of that become clearer through this pricing process as well. Definitely.
[00:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah. But it's not like it took some time, man. Like, how long did all that take? It doesn't happen overnight is what I tell folks that pricing is, takes a bit of time and effort. Right. How long did that take you in that journey?
[00:12:36] Speaker A: I think for us like the first two years probably because I guess it depends on how many customers you're attracting in a given period of time. And for us, like as I said, we're doing a platform. It's very much of a binary decisions for CFOs like are we going to do this, are we not going to do this? Or if it's a CRO or whoever. We didn't have that many price points or wins in the beginning. So that also I think led to. If you're doing like B2B enterprise sales from the start or you're doing like a sales led growth motion, I think maybe you can get customers earlier but I don't think it scales as quickly. Like if you really hit the spot with something that's product led, I guess there are downsides to that as well. But maybe when you really find, you know, your thing takes off a bit quicker and you get more data points. But I think it takes times and you know, it's like it's so easy looking back and saying how it was, but when you're in it, it's never as clear, right?
[00:13:41] Speaker C: Oh, never, Never.
You have to look back and let me ask you this, if you were looking back, would you do, would you do anything different? Would you do more or less of something?
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Looking back, I think maybe, maybe even more extreme. It's very easy to be caught up with like what it should look like or you should always have a few different plans so you know, the prospective customer can choose between, you know, really think like trying to be true to yourself and see like what makes sense to you. I think I would be a bit tougher on that and maybe do a bit less another time around. I do think that you should review pricing very frequently when it comes to the price point. But there's a trade off when it comes to changing the model in the beginning. I think getting enough customers is probably more important than finding the perfect price model in the beginning. I'm thinking then you have enough price points and you have enough data and then you can get going. But like finding something that works, I mean that's a big, big step in the beginning. So I would focus on that and then I would keep it maybe a bit longer and then do a bigger change, something like that. But it's more focused.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: Do it a little bit. Maybe it's always in the details. Right. But what I'm listening To you here, like is getting super clear on that why, right? Then having the conversations that help justify the why narrow it down. And those, those were hard, right? You had to sit there and talk to them and get the feedback and then you calibrate once you have enough data. Right. So it's clarity, right? It's conversations and it's, it's calibrate. We just made a framework, man. Just me and you talking. Fantastic.
Superman. No, I appreciate that. One big lesson. Like again, a founder sitting in front of you, he's, he or she's about to launch something in. Your biggest advice on what you learned in that pricing and packaging journey with.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: The disclaimer if it's like more sales led growth so you actually have conversations with people. But then I would definitely find your narrative around why you price the way you do and share that story and listen to the feedback. I think we wouldn't have as many companies doing seat based pricing if they did. Right? Ooh, there would be something else.
[00:16:00] Speaker C: You're right. Actually. That's a really good point. Really good point. Team, I want to take a quick pause here to ask you for a huge favor that'll mean a lot to me. Please review and share the show. Share it with your team, your friends, your peers. Not only will it help them stop the guesswork in pricing, but it'll also help you and increase the chances that you'll take action and change for yourself. All right, much love. Now back to the show. Let's move us from the rewind now into the play. So what's working today for Unium's pricing? Right, you now have some success, you're growing, you're moving into different countries. What's working?
[00:16:34] Speaker A: We've been to positioning and I think positioning has been really a big thing for us. Price is super important in the whole positioning exercise. So I think for us with our pricing right now, we have the right position. So we see ourselves as product leaders in our niche and I think we're priced according to that. So that's the biggest thing I would say. But also simple and fair. I think we talked about that a bit earlier as well. Like how we've seen, you know, we don't really want to charge for one offs. We don't want to do taxes and VATs or what, whatever. We want to like try to be as close as success as we can get and price on that. And so we can also align with, with our customers. You know what success looks like. We do, I would say the majority of recurring pricing, but we do also have a some variable fees, but I think like all in all, simple and fair and quite easy to understand. You know, like if you grow 100%, you know the price, there are no surprises in that. So like those three things I think are working well today. You can never really settle though, can you?
[00:17:48] Speaker C: No, you can't.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: Just because it works today, it doesn't mean it works tomorrow. Right. By the way.
[00:17:52] Speaker C: Yeah, it's iterative. You got to keep on pushing. And here's the thing, what you just said about the simple, about the fair, easy to understand those kind of things, no surprises. I think those are all really important. It's so hard to get there, Nicholas. I get so hard for folks. Right. And so my point here is when you think of fair, I was thinking about what you were saying, like don't charge me for stuff that you don't have a lot to do with. Right. And I've seen some overreaching on value with some companies where they say, hey, I'm going to charge you a percentage for all this total processing volume or whatever it is. And there's, and then there's this sort of pushback of like, well, wait a minute, like there's, there's certain things that have nothing to do with you and I don't want you profiting off of those things. But here's the thing, customers do want to pay you. They want you to be around. Right. They want you to make, you know, make a profit and all that stuff. But they don't want to pay you for things that they don't feel like you're responsible for. Right. So this whole thing around attribution and are you responsible for this value? So how do you get around some of that? Because usage based pricing is interesting, right? It's, you're really enabling them to charge more for their usage. Again, usage based is growing and it allows them to manage complexity. Right, Nicholas. And so how do you get them to understand that you're providing that simple and fair value? You've peeled away certain fees that don't make sense. I get that. But is there something else you did to keep it fair? Because I think fairly, it's very slippery for people to fare is fuzzy in my mind.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: It is, it is, it is. And I mean I, I don't think it's, it's, it's clear cut and I'm sure there are different opinions on it as well. Right. Sometimes I do think that you could definitely like find ways of doing usage and bill of consumptions or maybe Outcomes. But what I do find sometimes is that it's. It's very difficult to build on outcomes because the outcomes are not shared. That's not the data we shared. Instead we're looking at some activities or something and then we charge on activity or some sort of consumption. But that is not really the outcome, that's not really the value. So I guess finding that sort of middle ground where something is used for billing, but it also very transparent and open to both parties, I think is a key component in that. And sometimes it's not that easy.
So sometimes we've had discussions with companies and they are saying we only have 10 clients and they are worth 10 million each. The price you are suggesting doesn't really match that. Fine. I mean, I can totally see that. Right. As well. Like, yeah, I get that. But then we can at least. Okay, so our intention was to map the value you're getting and now you're confronting that with something that the model is not built for. Maybe we can have a discussion. And I think that is also like what you can do if you're in a sales growth motion. That is the luxury you do have. Also the complication you have. It depends on the situation. Right. But do think it opens up to have that kind of discussion and maybe you can then, you know, find a solution to that. And I think like, when I'm saying like, I think it's fair, it's based on the assumptions that we've been doing and I'm very confident that I put in more time in making those assumptions and thinking about this than anyone else.
Right.
I think I'm in a good, at least a good position where, you know, we've spent some time on this. It's not totally, you know, like out of nowhere. But of course, you know, there might be, you know, assumptions that are, you know, that are not true here. So hey, let's talk about that then and try to figure something out. But I think like with. It would be quite ideal with like if you could measure outcomes. Right. And be part of that holy grail.
[00:21:58] Speaker C: Right. I mean, hey, get the outcome, pay for that. There's a, there's a lot of talk about that. That actually is a good segue into the future because I think with all this AI stuff happening, outcomes and those outputs get a lot more attention.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:11] Speaker C: So let's move it to the future because this is something that's interesting, right. It's not easy. Like you said, there's a lot of stuff in the middle that's going on and Again, if the outcome, is it because of your software? Is it because of the people using the software? Is it because of my sales rep? Is it because of my CS people? And then attributing that. And so a lot of talk about it. And let me give you the example, right? Let's use, let's use Intercom and let's use AI agent that is really trying to resolve support calls or support cases. You can charge by the number the agent, you can charge by the number of cases, but they have gone all the way down to charging for resolved or resolutions. Right. Which is some definition of case closed. Right. And that takes it as far as they can go. But you've seen actually they used to charge by the agent before, right? Or by the user and so on, so forth. So evolution kind of happened over time and the market is somewhat accepting to. Yeah, okay, fine. Your, your AI result, you know, resolved this, the case and made it a full blown resolution. Therefore you get, fine, you get credit for it. And that's, this is the piece I'm trying to untangle is what do you get credit for versus what you don't get credit for? Because if you don't get credit for it and you're charging for it, same thing like you were saying about revenue under management, all the other stuff, it falls apart. So how are you seeing companies now that you've, you're implementing this across so many, how are you seeing them potentially move closer? They may not be at the very end of the spectrum, right. They may not be at the full outcome, but maybe they're getting closer is kind of what I'm saying. Are you seeing that too? And if so, what are some examples of folks getting closer?
[00:23:49] Speaker A: I do think there's promise to that and I think like Intercom is a good example of it. I also feel like for most companies it's so much uncertainty as well. Like Intercom is a really big company, so is Salesforce, so is HubSpot.
I'm sure they can afford a few missteps here and there and work it out. And I think that is a problem for most companies that, you know, it's really uncertain territory and I think people are very hesitant. So I think we're really seeing baby steps. I don't think we're seeing those big steps yet. I'm sure we will see them, but I think it will be a movement either by like the big companies pushing for, like you said with Intercom, or really small players with nothing to lose and a lot of, a lot of financial Backing. Because there is a risk to this as well, right? I mean with everything being valuable, you don't really know about the future. And I think that goes the other way on the buyer side. I mean, if they say today like, yeah, nice, let's do outcome based and then in two years the next company coming there with the same logic, they would be then replacing Intercom then. So they just need to be a bit cheaper than Intercom because where else.
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Do you have to go once you get to the outcome? Right. There's really nowhere else.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: Now it's a battle and then maybe that would be driving the prices down. And I guess that will, I think that will create a counter movement where you do want to balance with some certainty and some security as well. And I think that certainty and that security goes a bit both ways as well. Like definitely from a seller standpoint or vendor standpoint, you do like some security so you know what to hire against or you know what forecast to produce. But also on the buying side, like depending on the kind of system you're talking about, you definitely, I think you want to have different levels of security.
And maybe that's not a real security. Maybe that's the feeling of security perceived. Yeah, it could be that as well. But I do think we're seeing more outcome based from the companies doing more of a single use case kind of product and a bit less from those doing more platforms. But maybe that's. Maybe they're not as big as Intercom as well.
[00:26:19] Speaker C: Not many companies are.
That makes a lot of sense. The security piece is psychological, Nicholas. Right. It's sort of. How do you appeal to that psychology of the buyer? Right. Because no one wants to pay for something where they have no idea what they're going to end up paying at the end of the year. That's a human function. That's not a function of inputs, outputs and other things like that. I mean, sure, those are the things you measure, but in the end the uncertainty and the sort of apprehension to buy something where you're just not sure how to spend, that's a human dynamic, right?
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that's the same thing as well. Like if you're a really big company and you're buying things, maybe you have one preference. Maybe if you're sort of a bit beyond startup and you're feeling like things are settling, you have one preference. And if you're really small, you have another one. If you're really small, you don't have the money. I need to know that it costs $5 next month. Otherwise I can't really buy this because I'm only going to look at how much does this cost. And if you're super, super big it's like well for us we're at that level where we have so much data and we really know what the outcome is. We know how to measure it, we know all the incoming parts of it. So we know that had a discussion with the company that not doing only software but they're doing gates for airports. Of course it makes a whole lot of sense doing outcome based billing of that. Right. During the pandemic, okay, it was super bad for them as a vendor. But on the other hand the airports, they didn't have any people going there so they didn't have anyone going through the gates. So it was all unused. So I mean that makes a whole lot of sense. And when more and more flights are taking off, more passengers, more traffic, more business pay, more. So I mean I do think there are a lot of good use cases for it. I think I'm just in general very much against like when it becomes trendy.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I get you, I get your point.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Everyone wants to do the same thing. I then I like to stand on the.
[00:28:21] Speaker C: Wait a minute.
That's right. When everyone starts doing it, that usually means you gotta do something else. I get it.
That was fantastic. Mainly because I think you're pointing out a very important psychological limitation to this, to this equation. Equation, right. And at the very end there needs to be some sensation going back to what you were saying of fairness. Easy to understand. When this grows, I pay more. When this doesn't grow, I pay less. Right. So there's that up and down and then that blend of security and predictability, no surprise. But at the same time they recognize that if something were to grow, at least they understand how that moves and why. And all that makes a much easier sales led conversation. Right. At the end of the day, man, one last big lesson before we start wrapping up here. What is the big lesson in everything that you've seen and learn now in pushing Unium and the growth and in the movement in usage based pricing?
[00:29:16] Speaker A: I definitely think that you should adopt some sort of variable pricing into it. Maybe a bit counter to what we just talked about, but I do find like the blend of it is a very good place to be in for most companies. At least, at least for most like small middle sized companies where you definitely do want some security but you also want to get in. And I think the whole usage based pricing movement triggers you to think More about what is the specific value, how do we actually measure this? So I think not only the end result of the pricing, but also the exercise of thinking about it and having to get that precise with what is the value is very useful for a lot of companies. And if you can put that into part of your pricing, I think that's. That's great. And I think we're seeing that a lot like that mixed or the hybrid kind of pricing.
[00:30:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's. That strikes the right balance and what you said, getting precise. Right. And get. You got to get precise to get to the price, I think at the end of the day. Right. So you're. That's a good one for folks to leave on, man. Right.
Thank you, Nicholas, for sharing a lot of that insight and what you've seen and actually what you've done in going through like the hard conversations and thinking and getting the why and being fair, evolving that over time. I think those are all really key things for our users, our listeners here to take away and to think about a little bit more. What should be the reason why we're pricing and what we're about and how that aligns before jumping to the number, I think is a big one for folks to take away here. So I have to thank you and I want to ask you, did you have some fun doing this today?
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Definitely fun. It's worth my favorite topics.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: You, you. Excellent. I'd love to have you back to just give us some updates. You keep on expanding and growing. You're probably going to change and you know, take in all the new lessons from there. So we'd love to have you back.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:11] Speaker C: Cool, man.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Talk about co pilots and conversational insights and a lot of things. I mean, let's do that, man. Yeah.
[00:31:17] Speaker C: The AI would that landscape in two years from now. Who knows, right? Let me ask you this, man. I got one more question for you. It's my favorite question because it. We're all human, we're all people. Right. I want to get to know Nicholas a little bit more. Tell me your favorite song, your favorite jam growing up. What was it?
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I spend a lot of days now trying to come up with this. Right. I love music. In the end, I settled on levels by Avicii of a tribute. Also back to Sweden and Stockholm since I moved out for two years now. But also a bit of local but also a global success.
[00:31:56] Speaker C: So that was classic.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: It's good energy in that song. All right.
[00:31:59] Speaker C: Oh my goodness. The buildup. So from my perspective, it always tells me a little bit about where somebody thinks so you're true. You love classics, you love good energy at the end of the day. So good to hear a little bit of that from you. Nicholas. Thank again for coming on to the show team. That was amazing and thinking through in the rawness of pricing, peeling it back, making sure you get rid of all of those things that are viewed as unfair, things that are viewed that maybe you don't have a lot to do with that value, and getting very honest about what value you're contributing before you can really think about what to charge for. I think those were big lessons. And you know Nicholas, Leah, who is the CEO founder of Unium, Seen it all and by all means please take those lessons back on Monday. Get 1% better and improve and move away from that guesswork. And remember, stop guessing and start growing. Until next time, thank you and much.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: Love for listening to the Street Pricing podcast with Marcos Rivera. We hope you enjoyed this episode. And don't forget to like and subscribe. If you want to learn more about capturing value, pick up a copy of Street Pricing on Amazon. Until next time.
